TEC H50-65286H Flywheel

[copyman]

Was discussing in another thread about removing flywheel to get to electrical components. Someone suggested I post pictures. See attached.

Appreciate on how to remove Flywheel. I haven't tried anything except to try and pull off by hand. It feels like it's on there really tight. I looked at a few of the TEC manuals I had downloaded and didn't see procedure to remove flywheel.

Probably could find video on internet but figured I would ask here first.

Thanks for any help

 

[copyman]

I searched this forum and the tips to remove flywheel were posted already. From now on I will search the forum before posting and also if a specific engine question will post in the Tec forum. I didn't even see the forums for OEM engines. A lot of expert advice here.

Anyway this is what I did, sprayed some liquid wrench where key way is, put bolt back in, put slight pressure on flywheel and tapped on bolt. Came right off.

Maybe this will help someone else. It was easier than I thought.

Are the coils still being sold if i end up needing them? Think I saw cheap China magnetos on ebay, are these ok to use if no OEM available?

Thanks

 

[copyman]

I searched this forum and the tips to remove flywheel were posted already. From now on I will search the forum before posting and also if a specific engine question will post in the Tec forum. I didn't even see the forums for OEM engines. A lot of expert advice here.

Anyway this is what I did, sprayed some liquid wrench where key way is, put bolt back in, put slight pressure on flywheel and tapped on bolt. Came right off.

Maybe this will help someone else. It was easier than I thought.

Are the coils still being sold if i end up needing them? Think I saw cheap China magnetos on ebay, are these ok to use if no OEM available?

Thanks

Houston we have a problem... Looking at the electrical setup on this engine and TEC service manual it looks like a 7 Amp DC is installed when it is suppose to have a 3 amp AC. See pics in previous post. What is weird is it has 2 yellow wires like TEC "AC" wires are suppose to be. Makes sense why I was having trouble getting the heathkit headlight to work without a ground wire. And also reason I took apart was it was doing eratic voltages.
So bottom line is this is wrong electrical system. Hope I can find a 3 amp to keep bike original?

 

[Havasu Dave]

a lot of those old bikes ran their incandescent lamps on AC. The two yellow wires are the AC outputs for the 7 AMP system. It was billed as a 7 Amp DC system however, because all four iterations of the 7 Amp system used a Regulator/Rectifier. If you were getting screwy voltages, chances are you were varying throttle, reading AC on a DC scale, or using an analog meter. To measure, the RPM needs to be steady, and it varies a lot by RPM from nearly zero at idle. So yes, our lamps are pretty dim until we get going. If you are going to change to a 3 volt system, you will need the flywheel and the magneto. I don't know which engine, or application you have, but it may be more of a pain in the ass than you want to deal with- as none of these parts are made any longer.

If you don't have it, download the "Tecumseh Quick Reference" manual, as it contains some good information on charging systems.

Also, the manual you already downloaded shows tools in the back of the book. You need Tecumseh flywheel knock off tool part number 670103 to remove the flywheel without ruining your crank shaft nut. It's about $5 from Ebay and the like. (I assume you have a 7/16 flywheel threaded end)

Timing after replacing points is not straightforward. Rather than retype book procedures here, have a look at the Tecumseh manual Chapter 8 where it says "Ignition timing procedure." Essentially, you need a depth gauge or a dial indicator, and an ohm meter. If you run into troubles, several of us on here can help. Feel free to PM me if you need help. They can be a tedious thing to get right.

I use Synthetic oil in all of my engines, from 1964 Hodaka, several stock and modified flat heads, and my 67 Dodge 440. The reason I don't use alky fuel is that it eats rubber and aluminum, and it shows up real fast in Tecumseh carbs. Some of the other guys mentioned this in your other thread.

I hope this helps. As of late, there seems to be some hot tempers on here, and I'm a couple of weeks out of shoulder surgery and not real happy typing. Feel free to shoot me questions, as I am only one of several on here who have experience, or at least who can talk like they do. Dave

 

[copyman]

a lot of those old bikes ran their incandescent lamps on AC. The two yellow wires are the AC outputs for the 7 AMP system. It was billed as a 7 Amp DC system however, because all four iterations of the 7 Amp system used a Regulator/Rectifier. If you were getting screwy voltages, chances are you were varying throttle, reading AC on a DC scale, or using an analog meter. To measure, the RPM needs to be steady, and it varies a lot by RPM from nearly zero at idle. So yes, our lamps are pretty dim until we get going. If you are going to change to a 3 volt system, you will need the flywheel and the magneto. I don't know which engine, or application you have, but it may be more of a pain in the ass than you want to deal with- as none of these parts are made any longer.

If you don't have it, download the "Tecumseh Quick Reference" manual, as it contains some good information on charging systems.

Also, the manual you already downloaded shows tools in the back of the book. You need Tecumseh flywheel knock off tool part number 670103 to remove the flywheel without ruining your crank shaft nut. It's about $5 from Ebay and the like. (I assume you have a 7/16 flywheel threaded end)

Timing after replacing points is not straightforward. Rather than retype book procedures here, have a look at the Tecumseh manual Chapter 8 where it says "Ignition timing procedure." Essentially, you need a depth gauge or a dial indicator, and an ohm meter. If you run into troubles, several of us on here can help. Feel free to PM me if you need help. They can be a tedious thing to get right.

I use Synthetic oil in all of my engines, from 1964 Hodaka, several stock and modified flat heads, and my 67 Dodge 440. The reason I don't use alky fuel is that it eats rubber and aluminum, and it shows up real fast in Tecumseh carbs. Some of the other guys mentioned this in your other thread.

I hope this helps. As of late, there seems to be some hot tempers on here, and I'm a couple of weeks out of shoulder surgery and not real happy typing. Feel free to shoot me questions, as I am only one of several on here who have experience, or at least who can talk like they do. Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to reply especially with a sore shoulder. Hope you get back to normal soon. Thanks for the offer of help. Really appreciate it and may take you up on offer.

So you are saying this might of been the right electrical system that came with the engine? When I took flywheel off first thing I noticed was there was evidence of the nuts being taken off stator before (maybe to change points, etc)

The hilltopper as far I know came with H50-65286H engine and looking at the H50 manual this is part which show 2 coils & magneto. Part # 610821 (see attached)

And another that makes me think this electrical system was swapped out is the spark plug wire is black when original was white and it's shorter. The original was long enough to attached wire slack to a holder on side of engine plate, this wire isn't long enough to do that, just long enough to make to spark plug and none to spare.

Since I doubt I will be able to find the original is there any type of maintenance I can do to this one? Like spray with electrical cleaner and blow off with low pressure compressor? All wires look good, none broken.

Thanks again

 

[mustangfrank]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to reply especially with a sore shoulder. Hope you get back to normal soon. Thanks for the offer of help. Really appreciate it and may take you up on offer.

So you are saying this might of been the right electrical system that came with the engine? When I took flywheel off first thing I noticed was there was evidence of the nuts being taken off stator before (maybe to change points, etc)

The hilltopper as far I know came with H50-65286H engine and looking at the H50 manual this is part which show 2 coils & magneto. Part # 610821 (see attached)

And another that makes me think this electrical system was swapped out is the spark plug wire is black when original was white and it's shorter. The original was long enough to attached wire slack to a holder on side of engine plate, this wire isn't long enough to do that, just long enough to make to spark plug and none to spare.

Since I doubt I will be able to find the original is there any type of maintenance I can do to this one? Like spray with electrical cleaner and blow off with low pressure compressor? All wires look good, none broken.

Thanks again

That "Hilltopper" manual you linked also shows an aluminum magneto/alternator flywheel so file it away, it doesn't apply to what is actually on the mini now. Tecumseh sold engines with different setups to the same mini manufacturers or your engine isn't original.

The manual Dave recommended is great for figuring out which electrical system you have and diagnosis. Get the Tecumseh L-head Engines Service Information manual also, it's a free 5mb download.

You'll find information on whatever you need to do in those two manuals.

Someone definitely messed with the magneto bolts at some point which adjusts timing...wasn't it just running fine though before you started this job though? I'd be more curious about that crank snout, looks like the threaded end got broke off and it's been tapped for a bolt? Unless my knowledge of Tecumseh H50s is off they all had a nut securing the flywheel. Was the bolt well torqued?

 

[Havasu Dave]

I doubt any of the electrical components were swapped out. Someone could have very easily went in and removed hardware trying to find out why it was running rough. (On a Tecumseh, 99% of the time, it's the carburetor)

It looks to me like you have the 3 amp lighting system alternator setup which would have been correct.

I also see that some very smart people have already answered your questions back in August, and even supplied schematics, so I will withdraw from the conversation. Best of luck!

https://oldminibikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/heathkit-hilltopper.171135/post-1251666

 

[copyman]

That "Hilltopper" manual you linked also shows an aluminum magneto/alternator flywheel so file it away, it doesn't apply to what is actually on the mini now. Tecumseh sold engines with different setups to the same mini manufacturers or your engine isn't original.

The manual Dave recommended is great for figuring out which electrical system you have and diagnosis. Get the Tecumseh L-head Engines Service Information manual also, it's a free 5mb download.

You'll find information on whatever you need to do in those two manuals.

Someone definitely messed with the magneto bolts at some point which adjusts timing...wasn't it just running fine though before you started this job though? I'd be more curious about that crank snout, looks like the threaded end got broke off and it's been tapped for a bolt? Unless my knowledge of Tecumseh H50s is off they all had a nut securing the flywheel. Was the bolt well torqued?

There is aluminum flywheel on bike now.

I doubt any of the electrical components were swapped out. Someone could have very easily went in and removed hardware trying to find out why it was running rough. (On a Tecumseh, 99% of the time, it's the carburetor)

It looks to me like you have the 3 amp lighting system alternator setup which would have been correct.

I also see that some very smart people have already answered your questions back in August, and even supplied schematics, so I will withdraw from the conversation. Best of luck!

https://oldminibikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/heathkit-hilltopper.171135/post-1251666[/QUOTE

That is good to know it could be original. What was confusing the H50 manual shows only 2 coils and why I thought it was wrong. Someone must of changed the magneto because like I wrote in previous post spark plug wire is shorter & black (original wire on hilltopper was white and had slack in it to clip to plate on side of engine) see attached

Yes that good information back in august was to figure out wiring for lighting. When I finally got around to connecting the lights a few weeks ago is when headlight wouldn't work and erratic voltages. And this is why I pulled the flywheel to see what's going on and looked to be wrong electrical setup.

So is there any maintenance to do on these electrical components since I have it out ? Can I spray coils, etc with electrical contact cleaner. I use it all the time on copier electronics. It evaporates very quickly. And have original points & condenser that I might as well change while have out.

Thanks

 

[mustangfrank]

There is aluminum flywheel on bike now.

Nice looking Hilltopper.

You can ID aluminum flywheels since they cast the part numbers on those unlike the steel. The type of alternator flywheel (# of magnets) used is matched to the alternator/magneto so swapping those can cause weird voltages or frequency. The steel flywheel pictured with the plastic fins is not original, it looks like an HM80-100 series but if it had the correct # of magnets and if it was seated on the crank properly it would fire the alternator/magneto.
The alternator pictured on the engine requires an external regulator, that missing would also mess with voltages.

Beyond that I'm confused now as to where you're at with this project, I saw you posted a want ad for another mag...think it's time to hit the books and figure out if you're trying to get it running or still gathering parts to put it together the way you want it. Be warned, if you loosen or replace the alternator/magneto it requires specialized tools and procedures to re-time the engine, I'm pretty good at it but I hate doing that job, it's very fiddly/frustrating so I avoid removing mags whenever possible. I'd get some expert opinions on that crank snout, it may be just fine but it could be an accident waiting to happen...what did the bolt look like...new(er)?

We'll be here...

 

[copyman]

Nice looking Hilltopper.

You can ID aluminum flywheels since they cast the part numbers on those unlike the steel. The type of alternator flywheel (# of magnets) used is matched to the alternator/magneto so swapping those can cause weird voltages or frequency. The steel flywheel pictured with the plastic fins is not original, it looks like an HM80-100 series but if it had the correct # of magnets and if it was seated on the crank properly it would fire the alternator/magneto.
The alternator pictured on the engine requires an external regulator, that missing would also mess with voltages.

Beyond that I'm confused now as to where you're at with this project, I saw you posted a want ad for another mag...think it's time to hit the books and figure out if you're trying to get it running or still gathering parts to put it together the way you want it. Be warned, if you loosen or replace the alternator/magneto it requires specialized tools and procedures to re-time the engine, I'm pretty good at it but I hate doing that job, it's very fiddly/frustrating so I avoid removing mags whenever possible. I'd get some expert opinions on that crank snout, it may be just fine but it could be an accident waiting to happen...what did the bolt look like...new(er)?

We'll be here...

Hi sorry I'm also confused. Dave said it looks like the correct one but it didn't match the H50 parts manual / diagram that came with the hilltopper so I was still in doubt it was right. I'm putting the old one back in at this point. The flywheel has a lot of magnets so think you are correct and someone swapped both out. Already took out and replaced the points & condenser. going to re-install but posted in TEC forum on which way the key goes in, it fell out when flywheel was removed. I marked location of alt/mag so hopefully I will get lucky and will be alright?

Will post what happens

 

[Skipp]

You know the best thing I ever did before I tore apart a Tecumseh motor was watch a stupid you tube video....well several....and by the 5-6 video (all different people) I realized they weren’t so stupid after all...ask a few question in between just to make sense of it all...and damn if it ain’t pretty easy at times now...the factory timing video is a must....just saying...

 

[mustangfrank]

You know the best thing I ever did before I tore apart a Tecumseh motor was watch a stupid you tube video....well several....and by the 5-6 video (all different people) I realized they weren’t so stupid after all...ask a few question in between just to make sense of it all...and damn if it ain’t pretty easy at times now...the factory timing video is a must....just saying...

Factory timing video is the BEST! I enjoyed watching it just for the "set" and 70s vibe.

 

[copyman]

You know the best thing I ever did before I tore apart a Tecumseh motor was watch a stupid you tube video....well several....and by the 5-6 video (all different people) I realized they weren’t so stupid after all...ask a few question in between just to make sense of it all...and damn if it ain’t pretty easy at times now...the factory timing video is a must....just saying...

I'll watch the videos. If it's that old they may be using an H50 in class. I did see one with a lab coat. it might of been the one posted here. ha-ha

Before doing anything I research the hell out of it, Google, youtube, etc. Then ask a lot of questions, some stupid.

I would do a heck of a lot more research before I was to "tear" apart the engine, if I even attempted it. Closet thing I could think of I did to rebuilding an engine is a hydro-static trans on a 1998 craftsman garden tractor. Took me a few weekends before I finished. Still working good today, knock on wood!

What I've done to this bike so far is easy compared to tearing apart a copier and putting back together. Although the new copiers are more digital electrically still requires a mechanical skill set for motors , clutches, etc. I like the older copiers better because more mechanical.

 

[copyman]

Nice looking Hilltopper.

You can ID aluminum flywheels since they cast the part numbers on those unlike the steel. The type of alternator flywheel (# of magnets) used is matched to the alternator/magneto so swapping those can cause weird voltages or frequency. The steel flywheel pictured with the plastic fins is not original, it looks like an HM80-100 series but if it had the correct # of magnets and if it was seated on the crank properly it would fire the alternator/magneto.
The alternator pictured on the engine requires an external regulator, that missing would also mess with voltages.

Beyond that I'm confused now as to where you're at with this project, I saw you posted a want ad for another mag...think it's time to hit the books and figure out if you're trying to get it running or still gathering parts to put it together the way you want it. Be warned, if you loosen or replace the alternator/magneto it requires specialized tools and procedures to re-time the engine, I'm pretty good at it but I hate doing that job, it's very fiddly/frustrating so I avoid removing mags whenever possible. I'd get some expert opinions on that crank snout, it may be just fine but it could be an accident waiting to happen...what did the bolt look like...new(er)?

We'll be here...

Should this setup still produce AC voltage on both yellow wires since rectifier is missing? And setup lights according to all the good wiring advice I received back in August?

Wanted to add this flywheel has #'s stamped onto the back side where magnets are. So does this mean it's aluminum? It sure does look like alum.

Magnets surround the whole inside of flywheel. Sucker is heavy.

 

[copyman]

I was thinking it must suck when trying to adj magneto & points and have to keep taking cover off, remove gas line, throttle cable & gov links each time.
Do you have to keep taking cover off move a little and put all back together to test? Then do it again? Or if done right one time by the book it should be good?

Going to put it back together tomorrow add the non-alcohol gas and see if it starts.

 

[Skipp]

When you say cover you mean shroud?..,when setting the points I turn the crank...when setting the timing...(btdc) I turn the crank....I put fly wheel back on when everything else is done...then look for shroud....don’t put a set of vise grips on it just turn it by hand...if everything correct should be tough be manageable

 

[mustangfrank]

Should this setup still produce AC voltage on both yellow wires since rectifier is missing? And setup lights according to all the good wiring advice I received back in August?

Wanted to add this flywheel has #'s stamped onto the back side where magnets are. So does this mean it's aluminum? It sure does look like alum.

Magnets surround the whole inside of flywheel. Sucker is heavy.

If it works, it will produce some voltage depending on how many magnets that flywheel has. You can't hurt the alternator with the wrong flywheel but it won't produce the correct output. Upload a picture, it looks like a steel flywheel painted silver, aluminum flywheels didn't use the plastic fins, give it the magnet test.

 

[Skipp]

get one of these...and as a wise man once told me....just because you have good spark doesn’t mean you have good spark at the correct time...

 

[copyman]

If it works, it will produce some voltage depending on how many magnets that flywheel has. You can't hurt the alternator with the wrong flywheel but it won't produce the correct output. Upload a picture, it looks like a steel flywheel painted silver, aluminum flywheels didn't use the plastic fins, give it the magnet test.

Duh, will check with magnet. Man working on stuff that you aren't use to makes you feel real stupid. Will take a few pics tomorrow before I put it back together

Like I wrote in previous post there are magnets around the whole inside of flywheel. No spaces in between magnets completely around inside

 

[markus]

Would have loved to be a fly on the wall when they snapped the snout off that crankshaft! Guessing the flywheel (and probably a big 'ol 3 jaw puller) hit the ground and took out the the fins, or cracked just flat out cracked the wheel because that entire system is off a later engine, Its pretty easy to snap off the small frame snouts cause they were so small but you really gotta NOT know what you are doing to take one that size out! You need to be really careful and say your prayers to the baby Jesus that you can get that cluster F**K to seat and torque down properly when putting it back together. I wont comment anymore on that for reassembly, What I see there is unsafe so I am gonna bow out of any suggestions, Other than maybe see if you can have RCI or Taylor stich up a scatter blanket like they have for transmissions to wrap the shrouding with

That flywheel and magneto are from the late 70's era, The inside diameter changed at that point and the magneto's got smaller (On lighted/alternator systems only) so you have to use that era ignition stator plate with that particular flywheel. voltages without a rectifier-regulator will probably not be doable, as those systems take the 2 outputs and turn them into one coming out of the R-R. If you do get it running then test it like they show in the books, with you + and - attached to the 2 output leads, you should get min 12-18 volts ac ranging from 2500-3600 rpm. If thats about right than it would be worth trying one of the cheaper regulators that you can find online. The output of that will be 9-14v DC from 2500-3600

Now you know why I stated in a previous post to you "assume nothing" when it comes to these.