After a few weeks of bothering people on here I think I am ready to order parts and begin. Goal is to end up with a Tote Gote type able to carry two adults or one adult and 1/2 an elk. So a 400 lb payload. No tubing bender so using rect tubing. Getting inspired from the frame of the Trail Buck and the Tule Trooper,, well those and dark beer. Wanted enough power, and lights, and on a budget so am going with the Champion 389cc, 13(?) hp. torque converter, jack shaft, 6 inch band brake, leading link front end like the Trail Buck, long enough for two people and a bit of a rack. Number 40 chain. Not sure on the wheels and tires yet. Want a softer ride, but need the load capacity of a 4-6 ply. Plus most of where I ride will be rocky, so a tuff tire is needed. So still looking at tires and wheels. With the weight of the bike and payload I think a GVW of 6-800lbs, so each tire should be rated at 400lbs plus? Most likely have shocks on the seat, ridged rear wheel. Anyone see any gross errors here? And any ideas on wheels and tires? I assume the stock muffler has a Forest Service approved spark arrester, so will leave it for now, but a larger, quieter muffler is most likely in the future. I may be getting a small sheet metal brake, so will practice on some tool boxes on this thing. What kind of seat height should I be aiming for? Hey, thanks in advance for all your patience! Jim
I think I am ready to pull the trigger, anything sound wrong?
As far as tires with that capacity I think I would be looking at Golf Cart, ATV or Side by Side tires. You can get a limited selection in 8 inch but you have a much larger selection in 10 inch and 12 inch.
You can buy 10 inch wheels here > 10x8 White Steel Wheel (3:5 Offset) (<better offset)
10 inch Sahara's here > 22x11.00-10 Sahara Classic A/T Tire DOT (Lift Required)
You can buy steel Golf cart wheels in 12 inch here > 12x7 Spoked Black Wheel W/ Stem (2:5 Offset)
12 inch Sahara tires here > 22x11.00-12 Sahara Classic A / T Tire DOT (Lift Required)
Golf Cart wheels have a 4 on 4 bolt pattern and you can buy a common gokart - minibike hub with a 4 on 4 bolt pattern. You will just have to make spacers to center the wheel/tire in the frame. You have choices in 8, 10, and 12 inch tires in the Sahara line. They have very good traction in the mud and loose sand/gravel.
I have Sahara tires on both of my Golf Carts and they perform very well. Good ride on all surfaces. I have 8's on my regular golf cart but I changed up to 10's on my Carryall because it has a bed and I haul lots of heavy stuff with it. I haul a 55 gallon tank full of water to water plants and trees on 6 acres where I don't want to drag 4 or 5 hundred feet of hose. The 10 inch Sahara's handle the load with ease. Just in case you are wondering 55 gallons of water is 8.34 pounds per gallon making that a 458.7 pound load directly over the rear tires. Add to that the gas powered Carryall, Me at 275 pounds and the electric pump, hose and whatever else might get thrown in the back plus the dog... and the Sahara's don't even bulge or show any signs of overload.
Doug
You can buy 10 inch wheels here > 10x8 White Steel Wheel (3:5 Offset) (<better offset)
10 inch Sahara's here > 22x11.00-10 Sahara Classic A/T Tire DOT (Lift Required)
You can buy steel Golf cart wheels in 12 inch here > 12x7 Spoked Black Wheel W/ Stem (2:5 Offset)
12 inch Sahara tires here > 22x11.00-12 Sahara Classic A / T Tire DOT (Lift Required)
Golf Cart wheels have a 4 on 4 bolt pattern and you can buy a common gokart - minibike hub with a 4 on 4 bolt pattern. You will just have to make spacers to center the wheel/tire in the frame. You have choices in 8, 10, and 12 inch tires in the Sahara line. They have very good traction in the mud and loose sand/gravel.
I have Sahara tires on both of my Golf Carts and they perform very well. Good ride on all surfaces. I have 8's on my regular golf cart but I changed up to 10's on my Carryall because it has a bed and I haul lots of heavy stuff with it. I haul a 55 gallon tank full of water to water plants and trees on 6 acres where I don't want to drag 4 or 5 hundred feet of hose. The 10 inch Sahara's handle the load with ease. Just in case you are wondering 55 gallons of water is 8.34 pounds per gallon making that a 458.7 pound load directly over the rear tires. Add to that the gas powered Carryall, Me at 275 pounds and the electric pump, hose and whatever else might get thrown in the back plus the dog... and the Sahara's don't even bulge or show any signs of overload.
Doug
Since you plan a jack shaft anyway, why not go with a swing arm? With the weight you're talking about, it would be a better solution than a hard tail. Also, suspending a two-up seat requires quite a bit of shoring up at the pivot, and a difference in compression and rebound requirements of 100% of the load, plus or minus depending on one up or two.
With two people on the seat it would be bottomed out all the time. My thought was a sprung seat for me, and a cushion on the rigid luggage rack for passengers. With a swingarm I need to keep the jack shaft as close to the pivot point as possible or have issues with the chain? Or add a tensioner/guide. Was going to use DOM tubing and bronze bushings for the steering head, I could do similar for a swingarm. Anybody ever do the swingarm pivot and the jackshaft on the same shaft? Chain tension would be cured that way.
No lathe here, but welders, drill press. Look forward to your pics. I haven't seen any sprung axles, that is where the axle has springs top and bottom. The old Amen Savior chopper frames had them, and if memory serves me some old Nortons. Talking early 50's. I had thought about something on that order, but would be lucky to get 2 inches of travel, if that, and then trying to keep the axle in line could be fun.
I looked into those too. Years ago, I had an old "How to build a chopper book" that illustrated those. Like you say, not enough travel, and from what I read, they're squirrelly at higher speeds- though that wouldn't be a mini bike concern.
I can understand the desire to scratch build a machine of your own design for the good feeling of doing it yourself. However, there is still a lot of rewarding work taking an old bike that was purpose built, and restoring it.
I've restored a couple of Tote Gotes, and they have their pros and cons, but are excellent off road, heavy haulers. Also, the Bearcat Twister is a very well built machine, and was built in Phoenix.
Not trying to dissuade you from something you've obviously been thinking about. But there are options out there that are proven designs, and need enough work to make the restoration rewarding. Otherwise, your comments and notes on swing arm and jack shaft requirements are correct. You can find swing arms all over Ebay, many of which can be adapted to different designs. You can use brake drums on jack shafts, relieving you of the design issues with wheel brakes. You can even find front ends to adapt to frames.
I can understand the desire to scratch build a machine of your own design for the good feeling of doing it yourself. However, there is still a lot of rewarding work taking an old bike that was purpose built, and restoring it.
I've restored a couple of Tote Gotes, and they have their pros and cons, but are excellent off road, heavy haulers. Also, the Bearcat Twister is a very well built machine, and was built in Phoenix.
Not trying to dissuade you from something you've obviously been thinking about. But there are options out there that are proven designs, and need enough work to make the restoration rewarding. Otherwise, your comments and notes on swing arm and jack shaft requirements are correct. You can find swing arms all over Ebay, many of which can be adapted to different designs. You can use brake drums on jack shafts, relieving you of the design issues with wheel brakes. You can even find front ends to adapt to frames.
Another thought I had on tires. At the very least I have to get a forest service sticker for it, at the most I need to get it street legal. So DOT tires I would think would be required? In AZ most of the areas to ride in are Forest service or BLM and require a tag, and most of the FS roads are posted, licensed vehicles only. Wonder what act it takes to get a title on a home made? Fairly simple or is the first step a phone call to the Pope? I'll call Motor Vehicle Dept before I start to check. A little background, I used to work at, and at one time owned a motorcycle/small engine repair shop. Worked as an auto wrench, front end work mostly. Restored a 53 chevy PU I still drive, rebuilt unknown number of motors. Have a pretty well stocked garage, with mig, stick, torch, drill press, micrometers, air, and a lot of wood working tools, which I think will come in handy as I was going to do a mock up in wood. Mostly to get general measurements and check for stupid design ideas. So I think I have enough skills and background to really screw this up! Thanks again for the comments. I been looking for Tote Gotes or similar to buy and restore, and not much coming up. Few I saw were in bad shape and I felt way over priced.
Have you seen my utility bike? maybe give you some ideas. My bike gets pretty squierly when you load too much weight on it. maybe too high a center of gravity or the rack is too far back im not sure. I just use it for chainsaws and stuff. The suspension you are describing is called a leading link. I built on my board track bike. Definately not for the first timer. Too much going on there not ideal for a utility bike. You want something strong and simple.
I did see your utility bike! Cool!. I do understand rake and trail, but I know I will making a SWAG on the spring rate, center of gravity, etc. My hopes are on a slow bike none of it will be a deal breaker. Worse case, dig the Sawzall out and start over. I was a little leary of a solid front end. Wanted some travel. I remember the leading link from my dirt bike days, the old Monarch and DKW's had them, as well as BMW's and early Hondas. Hitting the front brake makes them stand up and lock up the suspension, great fun!. The original anti dive front end. Keeping it simple was one reason for a hard tail rear. How well do the fat, low pressure tires handle? Most of those tires I been looking at have very low weight limits. I am thinking the bike with rider with be somewhere between 400-500 lbs, add a deer or 1/2 an elk on the back and I can see tapping 600-700lbs. So balloon tires seem like they will not work, so heavier ply and some sort of front suspension.
With the bike requirements and riding environment you are talking about, rake and trail wont be an issue. (low speed) Design it around an 8 inch wheel base. There are plenty of DOT rated trailer tires in that size, as well as tractor tires with load capacities that are adequate.
For example, the Kenda 4.80-8 is rated at 240 pounds. While it is only 2 ply, it is very robust, and at your lower climbing/offroad speeds will not hurt it. I've had tote gotes come to me with the original version of these tires still mounted and holding air after 50 years.
Quite honestly, if you are really looking at a 700 LB GVW, you are well in to full size motorcycle category.
There are some threads around here, including my own that show the break down of suspended front ends from Powells and Tote Gotes. Fairly simple concepts, inner springs, bronze bushings. They can be built without a lathe, if you can manage adjustments on bushing diameters with a drill press. Those front ends work well, and result in a ride as smooth as can be. And as I said earlier, Ebay is full of front ends, where all that is needed is a stem/neck fabrication.
For example, the Kenda 4.80-8 is rated at 240 pounds. While it is only 2 ply, it is very robust, and at your lower climbing/offroad speeds will not hurt it. I've had tote gotes come to me with the original version of these tires still mounted and holding air after 50 years.
Quite honestly, if you are really looking at a 700 LB GVW, you are well in to full size motorcycle category.
There are some threads around here, including my own that show the break down of suspended front ends from Powells and Tote Gotes. Fairly simple concepts, inner springs, bronze bushings. They can be built without a lathe, if you can manage adjustments on bushing diameters with a drill press. Those front ends work well, and result in a ride as smooth as can be. And as I said earlier, Ebay is full of front ends, where all that is needed is a stem/neck fabrication.
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The 700 gvw is on a rare occasion. If my record over the past elk hunts is any indication. Mostly just me on the bike and some gear. I had looked at the 480x8. some are in 4 plys, and the 530x 8 are too, lots of weight there. When I was a pup I had a Tote Gote and took it dam near everywhere. it had a 4 hp. I'll sketch a few more ideas out and then start cutting and welding. If it doesn't look like something from a Stephen King movie, I'll post a few pics as I go. Thanks again for the thoughts guys!
It appears in Arizona for me to get the Forest Service sticker I have to go to the state to get a title. I can get just an "RV" title that is not good for street use, or a street use title. Both require lights, brakes, etc. But to get street plates I must have insurance, so I need to see what that will cost. Without either of these I can only ride on private property, which Az has very little of. To get a title or license plate I must go thru several inspections. worse than all that is the countless times doing the "Waiting in the DMV line" shuffle! Oh well, just part of the experience.