Project #14.854 --Big block Rebuild

#21
This might be a good place to interject with the proper way to use a bore gauge. (I'll let you do it) I'd used it wrong for years, until a machinist told me I was using it wrong. Agree with digital calipers being inaccurate. It's the skinny-ass bit that slides over the bore gauge ball ends that messes me up. I also use the bore gauges to tell me what shape the bore is in, hour glass, or funnel, or oblong front to rear, etc.

I've read a few posts from decent builders over the years about drilling and chamfering an oil hole. Ole4 would be who I would direct that question to, although I can name a few others here.

I'm following along with another great engine write up. Thanks Pete. :thumbsup:
 
#22
This might be a good place to interject with the proper way to use a bore gauge. (I'll let you do it) I'd used it wrong for years, until a machinist told me I was using it wrong. Agree with digital calipers being inaccurate. It's the skinny-ass bit that slides over the bore gauge ball ends that messes me up. I also use the bore gauges to tell me what shape the bore is in, hour glass, or funnel, or oblong front to rear, etc.

I've read a few posts from decent builders over the years about drilling and chamfering an oil hole. Ole4 would be who I would direct that question to, although I can name a few others here.

I'm following along with another great engine write up. Thanks Pete. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the post...I'll PM [MENTION=3072]ole4[/MENTION] to see if he'll weigh in with a post. Now, you're gonna make me go downstairs and find my machining textbook!:laugh: I hope it's still in the cabinet I put it in.....:shrug:
 
#23
How to properly use Telescoping Gages

I showed a sample measurement with the telescoping gauge. Ideally, a micrometer is best when taking bore measurements. My Harbor Freight caliper goes to 10 thousandths digitally but there is error with this device as the screen readout is really a best guess by the microchip. While it's far better than the eye and a ruler, a highly calibrated micrometer is best if you are extremely serious about your build. Be prepared to spend serious money for a quality micrometer (even on e-Bay).

The below link offers a good description of how to use telescoping gauges (the textbook I wanted I couldn't put my hands on). Telescoping gauges simply transfer an inside dimension to an outside dimension which can be easily measured. Basically, you are rocking the gauge back and forth vertically until you find the sweet spot of the curved surfaces of the gauge. Gauges are identified by letter size and correspond to minimum and maximum measurable widths with the device.

The images in this link are very helpful. Forgive the Queen's English...it's a bit more formal than we are used to!:laugh:

https://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/telescopic-gauges/how-to-use-a-telescopic-gauge/
 
#25
I don't know about the oil hole but most rods have them. Here are some pics of my H50 billet rod and it has two holes drilled on top and as these rods have bearing inserts the inserts have holes on one shell to match the holes in the rods. The top of the holes are chamfered. Other than running a tiller I would be afraid to use a rod with no oil hole.
 
#26
I don't know about the oil hole but most rods have them. Here are some pics of my H50 billet rod and it has two holes drilled on top and as these rods have bearing inserts the inserts have holes on one shell to match the holes in the rods. The top of the holes are chamfered. Other than running a tiller I would be afraid to use a rod with no oil hole.
Thanks for sharing!:thumbsup: That kind of settles it then, I'll figure out a means to drill the holes and be safe about it. Honestly, since I started back playing with small engines, I can't think of an engine that had stock rod oil holes. Definitely going back into my Quas-Animal and checking that rod before I venture to start it.
 
#27


Looking at the hs50 rod it just has a notch on the chamfer to let oil in but the arc rod has a oil hole I can see in the picture. I don't remember if it had the hollow dipper like the clone arc rod.
 
#28
Carb Spacer

The carb spacer did not have any screws/bolts to secure it to the block/carb. This is a mock up picture below. I could have ordered the missing screws but decided the shipping cost was far more than the $1.60 I spent in hardware.:laugh: The hardware store didn't have fillister screws in 5/16-18, so I ground down the heads on the two block screws. The carb flange bolts are 1/4-20, and from the factory, they have a keps-type washer on the head. Since these are flat head screws, I couldn't get a washer for these either. However, the screw ends are filed so a standard screw driver can secure the nuts.



I also needed to replace the governor internals. I had to source a "c-clip" to secure the inner portion of the governor spool. Luckily, the hardware store had a huge selection. I also had to transfer a small propellor-like rod from one of the busted units I had to make the governor complete. The Markus-made side cover served as a guide to finish this task.

I'm not comfortable even thinking about going governor-less. Given what I've seen with the three engines I have, the rod is the weak link (that and not changing the oil:nuke:). The engine is a torque monster as it is, so why risk blowing a hole in the case?



 
#29
1969 Rod Preparation

I took the plunge and drilled an oiler hole for the crank bearing surfaces. As Ole noted, there is a relief for oiling of the crank; however, it's not machined and the casting flash on the connecting rod was terrible. I used the Dremel to clean off the casting flash...looks prettier, but perhaps removes a stressor or two from the rod.

I tried to match the angle of approach on the OG rod, but needed to be a little more steep in my angle. I used a 1/16" pilot, and then drilled out to the same size as the OG--3/32". I then took a 1/4" chamfer bit and just touched the bearing surface.

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#31
1969 H60 Rings, Piston, Crank and Cam plus a side cover

I ordered a set of 0.010 rings for the H60. I spent about an hour filing and setting the ring end gap. The ring gap is checked with the ring inserted midway in the bore. In this case, a gap of 0.010 was set for all three rings. The max is 0.020. Side clearance was also checked, and the piston was in spec at 0.030. BTW, I set the ring gap for the Trail Bike H60 also at 0.010, and it's a beast with really good compression.





The piston and the crankshaft have to be installed at the same time. The rings and skirt were oiled as was the cylinder bore. I oiled the rod bolts before installing the rod cap. In checking the manual, there was a note about installing the piston directionally if there was an arrow on the piston face or number(s) cast adjacent to the wrist pin. This apparently applies to HM80 engines for offset purposes. Numbers were found on this piston, so I aligned the piston as noted in the manual just to be safe. The rod /cap match plates must face the sump cover.



The rod cap was torqued to 170 in-lbs. Tappets and the cam were installed next with liberal amounts of oil. The keyway on the crank aligns to the timing mark on the cam.



The side cover bolts were cleaned up and a dab of anti-seize applied. I ran a 1/4-20 tap in the eight bolt holes to clean them out. The side cover is torqued to 115 in-lbs. I oiled the bearing surfaces and hit the cam one last time before installing the cover. I rotated the engine a few times just to be sure nothing was amiss. Still to be checked is valve lash.



 
#32
Setting the Timing on the 1969

Maddening, I tell you, is setting the timing on an old Tecumseh. Nothing ever seems to go right the first time. Remarkably, the points were in pretty good shape so I kept them. I disassembled the entire assembly and degreased and cleaned it with Brake Cleaner. I had two timing cams: 1) the original and 2) one sent with the new crank. I matched them and they were the same, so I used the one from the new crank....somebody had forced the OG cam on backwards and the key was damaged. Put the baffle on first....


[MENTION=53799]control4userguy[/MENTION] and I went back and forth one day a while back comparing notes on getting the timing set on an older, more senior (read worn) H-series engine. We both concluded that there were no tricks making life any easier.

The manual simply says both valves closed at TDC...I make it point to be at TDC on the compression stroke, though it shouldn't make any difference--the cam and points are in the same relative position when at TDC and both valves are closed.

Points get set at 0.020" and a snug fit. Hint: the points will move when you tighten the retaining screw. I used a feeler gauge setting of 0.018," after tightening I checked at 0.020" and it was dead-on and snug.

Since I don't have the Tecumseh dial indicator, I do the set up with the head off. I also locate the indicator as close to the center of the piston as my jerry-rigged base will allow. The points are set 0.080" before TDC. Getting there is a task. Be sure to take the play out of the crank, first and locate TDC. Then rotate the engine clockwise to 0.080". You need to be as close to this reading as you can get (it'll move if you breath on it).


What ends up happening is the crank cam nose is now in the "11:15" position. Then it's a matter of rotating the magneto housing until the meter shows no resistance or tones, if you have that feature.

As usual, I could not get the meter to tone when twisting the magneto assembly. I took everything apart, cleaned everything again (including the crank cam) and reassembled. Set the points again, reset BTDC and tried again. NADA.

After fiddling for a while, I decided to see at what point BTDC I did get a tone. The meter toned at 0.086" with the magneto fully clocked clockwise. I became convinced that I didn't have the dial indicator set right, so back to TDC, back it off counterclockwise, gradually move the piston to TDC and beyond, bring it back to zero and I might have been a degree or two off. Back to 0.080" and no tone. Magneto still clocked all the way, and I checked for tone and at 0.084" it toned. But no wiggle room.

I removed the magneto again and I looked at the mounting flanges closely. It appears the magneto had been at full clock (clockwise) from birth. Looking at the flange still more closely, there was a good 1/16" of casting flash inside, so I took my dremel and a sanding drum and removed the flash. Reassembled, tried it again and got to 0.082". Took the magneto off, worked on the flanges again and cleaned it one more time. Mounted and she toned at 0.080." I suspect she would have ran at 0.082" +/- but I wanted to be dead on.



I also checked valve lash today, and it measured at 0.005 at TDC, valves closed on the compression stroke.
 
#33
I haven't tried timing tricks with the Tec, but the calculator shows 18 degrees at .080, not real aggressive for a hotrod?
tim.png

At 25 degrees it's around .150 BTDC:
timm.png
 
#34
I haven't tried timing tricks with the Tec, but the calculator shows 18 degrees at .080, not real aggressive for a hotrod?
View attachment 95092

At 25 degrees it's around .150 BTDC:
View attachment 95093
Remember, this isn't the hot rod--as stock as I can get it aside from the intake work. I've tried to make sure that it's built as engineered. I'll post a pic tomorrow of the original piston pin...it got so hot that it has ridges on it. I added the oiler hole on the crank bearing side to try to alleviate the heat concerns. These points ignition engines are very finicky. The next engine is solid state, which might make a difference.

Thanks for sharing the calculator. I hadn't seen that before and I need to play around with it some (far more interesting than chain centerline calculations:smile:). I'll definitely learn a thing or two.

Added--the flange would really have to be hogged out (+1/8) to get more advanced timing. As it is, it's barely off the cam nose fully clocked.
 
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#35
Aaah, I forgot the focus of the thread.
It looks like you were struggling to get it far enough retarded, with a whole slot of advance available?
That calculator is handy, saves some over-my-head math, as long as ya don't mind the English/Metric conversion.
I use a similar one for port timing on the 2-stroke builds.
Thanks for the awesome write up.
 
#36
Aaah, I forgot the focus of the thread.
It looks like you were struggling to get it far enough retarded, with a whole slot of advance available?
That calculator is handy, saves some over-my-head math, as long as ya don't mind the English/Metric conversion.
I use a similar one for port timing on the 2-stroke builds.
Thanks for the awesome write up.
You're exactly right....I could move the timing toward and almost beyond TDC but not much BTDC. You got me interested last night so I did some reading. If I brought the timing back too much BTDC, I'd run the risk of losing power without increasing fuel flow and/or suffer early detonation problems (H60s are notorious for that). Since this engine will have an upper rev limit of about 3800, any advantage of additional timing wouldn't show up.
 
#37
Aaah, I forgot the focus of the thread.
It looks like you were struggling to get it far enough retarded, with a whole slot of advance available?
That calculator is handy, saves some over-my-head math, as long as ya don't mind the English/Metric conversion.
I use a similar one for port timing on the 2-stroke builds.
Thanks for the awesome write up.
That is a handy calculator! I once computed (manually) the stock advance setting in degrees for the HS (early points style) because Tim Isky was grinding cams for people, and it seemed like playing with advance would have been worthwhile. In stock configuration, if you set too much spark retard, they wont run. Too much advance, they will start and run at extremely low RPM, but won't accelerate from idle. Member Phil did an entire electronic ignition system for the newer engines, with an electronically adjustable advance, but I did not hear the results.

That big slot in the magneto plate doesn't account for very much total ignition timing. What we have found, is that an initial TDC point gap of .017 (.020 is optimal) is still enough to collapse the field and build a good spark in the secondary. Generally, a tighter initial setting allows the advance to be set more towards the middle of the slots. Running out of room on the magneto plate is a common occurrence with these. Points wear, both on the contacts, and in the tension of the arm, become very noticeable when you are timing them. I don't think I've done one yet, that couldn't have benefited from longer slots in the plate. You are right, it's always closer to the retard side where you run out of room.

Pete, nice write up. :thumbsup: I always clean up the plate now, get it smooth for easy turning. I use a digital meter, and set it at RX20K. It's a more electrically sensitive setting than the lower settings with high voltage applications. I don't use the beeper, but watch the readout, as I tap the mag plate lightly with a screw driver. But hey, I am getting so good at timing these now, it only takes two or three tries. LOL. Tedious as heck! Especially when you don't realize your dial indicator has gone an extra trip around the dial while you blinked. :laugh:
 
#38
^^^^Great Information^^^^ I needed a head bolt for the '69, so I headed over to the small engine shop and ended up buying a set of points and condenser for this engine. Went through the same ordeal again....:mad2: .... this with new Tecumseh branded points made in Taiwan. The spring tension was so great that the points arm would not set on the cam, so I had to tweak it a bunch of times. I was getting false readings until I noticed it. The magneto is no longer clocked full clockwise...go figure! The points are set at 0.020" snug, so we'll see what happens. This engine will be put aside until Joe51 has linkages ready (my order is already in).

Below is the original piston wrist pin. This is a prime example of what happens with low or dirty/degraded oil.




The ridge measured at 0.6215"


While main portion of the pin was at 0.6175"
 
#39
Thoughts on Exhaust System

Picked up some 3/4" ID PVC to play around with exhaust header. I came up with two versions: 1) a stubby which I need for the Trail Bike and 2) a longer system that fits under the fuel tank and above the fender on a 6" wheeled Gilson. You should get a hint as to what these engines will end up on.:laugh:





The longer version. I had it originally outside the frame but I just did not like the look. This would have a flexible clamp on the rear down tube to support (like the original but reversed).


 
#40
Texted Mr. Wulf this afternoon. We are going to go with 3 of the stubby headers. I found RLV mufflers at a great price (new, too). One for each of these engines and one for the Trail Bike (getting tired of cleaning off the frame tube). Short enough to probably not need a brace.
 
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