First Heald mini bike build

#21
Paul, you are probably right. Trying to bring this back to factory would be almost crazy. The rear mounts for the rear axle are still there but they have welded a secondary plate over part of the bracket and mounted the shocks to it. As far as the back wheel, you are also correct, a second flange was mounted on the right side of the wheel. I would have to
scrap the whole wheel or cut the hub off at some area to just get it off of the wheel. While I'm on here, any ideas for the fenders? Oh, the front tire is a 20 x 11 x 8. That tire I would want to change no matter what. I know, there is a lot going on here, and thanks so much for your advise.
Larry
As far as fenders, have you messed with fiberglass? Since this is going to be a custom bike, I'd make new ones from fiberglass. This may be the longest alternative as you have to make a mold first then layup the FG and then smooth it out. Alternatively, perhaps finding a couple of ATC front fenders on the 'bay. Yet another alternative would be trailer fenders, split in half and weld in additional sheetmetal to get the additional width.

Personally, I would stick with the 22x11x8 tires, these are more common to find replacements for as well as there are a wider number of choices for replacements than the 21x12x8 tires the SB was designed around, the rear sounds like its already setup for these size tires, the front should not take too much modification to accept the 22" tall tires.

Paul
 
#22
I have used fiberglass, but not great at it. A lot of sanding for me but certainly not out of the questions. When talking about this 346cc engine, would I still need an adapter plate to move it forward more, or are you thinking this would bolt in original mounting holes.
Also there was mention of a TAV backing plate, which Im assuming
will have a bearing installed on it. Would I just need to install a longer jack shaft into and then install additional support on the other side of the mount to then install a braking option.
Would you still use a driver T/C on the engine or would this now use a cent. clutch and jackshaft system. Sorry for so many questions, just want to do it correctly with out buying too many additional parts. Thanks again for all the information.
 
#23
Larry,

I forget, do you already have a TAV? I looked through the thread, but I did not see any mention. What came with mine is what I would have done had mine come as a "blank slate" like yours. I have the 40 series comet TAV with the drive pulley is on the engine and the driven is mounted to the jackshaft, there is no back plate, the jackshaft has its own frame that is mounted behind the engine on the same plate that the engine bolts to (i.e. this is the frame that is welded on and part of the SB's frame, nothing to do with the backplate on a TAV). Because of that, you don't have to worry about any kind of spacers or anything else for adapting the backplate to the engine. Assuming the drive pulley does not need any kind of spacers (i.e. perhaps the shaft on a Honda Clone engine is longer than the shaft on a vintage Tecumseh and you need a spacer for the driven pulley/clutch work properly) you don't need to make any modifications. However, on my setup, the drive for the rear wheel is on the opposite side as the engine shaft and the separate jackshaft/frame setup does add complexity that a TAV with backplate does not. The advantage to the TAV setup with a backplate is that it is a "compact" and easy transmission setup to retrofit onto these industrial engines.

There's no need for a separate clutch, which I see, at least, the imported ATV's/UTV's use. I believe the TAV type setup that comes with them, they need a separate clutch. The drive pulley acts as the centrifugal clutch with the Comet/GTC TAV systems. Adding another centrifugal clutch would not be, IMHO, a good idea. I don't know of any mechanical type clutch that could be retrofitted very easily to these kinds of engines and I don't think it would be necessary given the internal centrifugal clutch of the TAV drive pulley.

My jackshaft happened to come with a hydraulic disc brake setup, but the "safest" is to use brakes at the wheels because if the chain were to brake, you would have only front brake (assuming you put on a front brake) to try to brake with. Probably not going to be an issue, but it is something to keep in mind. Had mine not already come with the hydraulic setup on the jackshaft, I would have put the brakes on the wheels as on a conventional motorcycle/dirtbike/minibike (I still am planning to put something on the front as my "emergency" brake should the chain break leaving my SB without working brakes). If I were to use the TAV kits with the backplate, the separate brakes on the wheels is what I would use. I do not believe you can retrofit brakes to the backplate TAV jackshaft setups because of the amount of overhang on the jackshaft would put too much pressure on the jackshaft bearings while braking. With the separate frame style like on my SB, the jackshaft bearings are spread far enough apart that the brake is in the middle between the bearings, the driven pulley and sprocket are cantilevered from widely spaced bearings, so the stress is better handled by the bearings. Not sure if the backplate jackshaft has one or two bearings for support, but the driven pulley and sprocket are cantilevered off of closely spaces bearings which adds stress to the bearings and to extend the jackshaft and add a brake would cause even more stress on the jackshaft bearings.

I hope I touched on the majority of your questions.

Paul
 
#24
Not the best pictures, but a couple of my jackshaft assembly mounted in the frame. Engine and driven pulley have been removed. Looking at the second picture, the driven pulley (removed) is on the right, the sprocket is on the left, as you can see the brake is between the bearings. If I had a backplate TAV assembly, I could remove the engine and TAV from the SB as one complete unit.






Paul
 
#25
Paul, thanks, very good pictures. I see what you mean. No, I do not have a TAV at this time, but I have used them before. I guess my options are to run a TAV and install the brake at the wheels or install a jackshaft system and install the brake on the jackshaft with possibly a brake on the front wheel. I think my rear wheel and hub will be junk if I try to remove it since there is now a flange welded on the right side which will prohibit me from removing in from the wheel. In your opinion, is there one option better than the other? I believe I can do it either way, just some fab work. Again thanks for your help. I did stop at Harbour Freight today and look at the 346cc. Dimensions are 17.1 inches tall and 18.9 inches long. Not sure I could make that fit inside that frame work with out removing some of the parts like muffler,stock air filter and gas tank. That's a big engine.
 
#26
I tried putting a 9hp clone in mine and even that was too big because the head is "leaning" back and is not straight up and down. I dont know if it will work with the engine plate mounted jackshaft because I do not have one to try. I know it wont work with my set up which is the one with the brake mounted to the back of the TAV backing plate without too much fabbing which I dont want to do. I do know the problem isnt an engine or TAV issue. IT is incorporating brakes into the mix.
 
#28
I could always put a modified engine on it for a little more zip and still keep the size smaller. Put one on my mini chopper. Really has some power. Im assumming the backing plate with the brake drum is no longer available. I have been given several good ideas and I really do appreciate it. Thanks again.
Larry
 
#29
They are no longer being made. And are almost impossible to find. That is why you may want to try the jackshaft route. If you can get someone to give you the dimensions.There are some fab guys here who can bend up some metal and put in the proper sized hols for bearings..
 
#30
Paul, thanks, very good pictures. I see what you mean. No, I do not have a TAV at this time, but I have used them before. I guess my options are to run a TAV and install the brake at the wheels or install a jackshaft system and install the brake on the jackshaft with possibly a brake on the front wheel. I think my rear wheel and hub will be junk if I try to remove it since there is now a flange welded on the right side which will prohibit me from removing in from the wheel. In your opinion, is there one option better than the other? I believe I can do it either way, just some fab work. Again thanks for your help. I did stop at Harbour Freight today and look at the 346cc. Dimensions are 17.1 inches tall and 18.9 inches long. Not sure I could make that fit inside that frame work with out removing some of the parts like muffler,stock air filter and gas tank. That's a big engine.
Larry,

I thought the 346cc engine was small enough to would work with no mod's, sorry :anon.sml: .

As far as the brakes, I am a conventional kind of guy who worries about the worst case scenario (i.e. chain breaking). That would lead me to lean toward a brake on each wheel hub, but then I have no experience with a jackshaft mounted brake, so I am game with my current build. Not to say that a jackshaft mounted brake is not a good thing, I figure with years of wheel mounted brakes on just about every production motorcycle, dirtbike and most minibikes, there must be a reason for it. The disadvantage of the brake on the rear hub is that you need to be able to make a drum or disc mount that is small enough to fit through the center hole of the wheel. The alternative is to, perhaps, find a way to mount a disc or drum to the drive sprocket (a disc may be easiest by using a spacer, drum would require boring out the sprocket and mounting the drum to the hub and then the sprocket to the drum, flanged drums are available from the sponsor). The only disadvantage to a front brake is mounting the brake actuator (caliper or drum shoes) to the lower fork, which I believe can be done with the bolt that connects the spring to the lower fork.

An additional disadvantage that just came to me for wheel mounted brakes is that you will probably need to lean toward a larger size for wheel mounted brakes. If you see how small the disc is for the jackshaft mounted brake, the jackshaft brake has a leverage advantage (large sprocket on the wheel trying to turn a small sprocket on the jackshaft means the jackshaft has the torque advantage) while wheel mounted brakes are at a disadvantage in leverage (small diameter brake has to overcome the torque of a larger tire).

Thanks, for the pictures Gumpit. I had not paid too much attention to those when they were posted in another thread. That does look more stout than I had pictured it in my head, which was just modifying a standard TAV backplate, not the Heald version, to add the brake next to the sprocket (which I think is on the same side as the brake is in your photo and no outer bearing like that shown for the brake).

Paul
 
#31
I would like to do a horseshoe shaped scrub brake set up. So the foot brake would be on both sides and you could operate with either foot. If that makes sense.
 
#33
Gumpit, I have not talked to Ron yet, trying to get an idea of what all I might need and ask all at once. Having an extra brake on the front wheel would be nice. Thanks again for the help.

Larry
 
#34
Well, I have tore down the big mini today, even with rotater cuff surgery two weeks ago.
Takes much longer when you're mostly using one hand. I will need to either cut off the right side flange on the rear wheel or I will not be able to separate the halves. Always something but that is where the fun is. Will take wheels to the tire shop to get those tires off. Let the fun begin!!!!
 
#35
Talked to Ron at Power Tec,front brakes are no longer available. He still does not have tube bender working yet to make new forks,which is probable something I wil need. sounds like there are other parts I can still get though.
 
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