Any plumbing /electrician or water heater experts.

[WrenchDad]

Looking for some electric hot water heater help.
The problem started Monday morning -luke warm water. (tank is aprox. 15 years old) two element 5500 wqtt 240 V.
I figured it was an element (reset was not tripped) so Monday evening I shut the breaker off and drained the tank, got two universal replacement elements(5500w/240v). They were shorter than the ones that came out but supposedly a suitable replacement. installed them hooked the wires back up ,filled the tank and bled the air, once water came out of all the HW faucets I turned the breaker back on. Two hours later still cold water. Tuesday second option replaced Both thermostat's with replacement thermostats. Turned the breaker back on and 2 1/2 hr's later still ice cold water. Assuming the shorter elements may have been the wrong ones(even though the watt's were the same) and burned out. A different store had Reehm brand elements in the 5500W 240v longer element. So I returned the two shorter ones and the thermostats (thinking they were inferior to the Reehm brand) and got two new elements and thermostats. Installed them and 2hr's later ....cold water. I cleaned all the grounds and checked all the terminals every thing was tight . The twelve /two with ground connects white to the red on the tank, black to the black and the ground screwed to the tank. I cleaned those connections and new wire nuts . It's like there is no powers so I checked . I put the leads on the top two screws of the top thermostat and I get 0 When I put one lead on one screw and the other lead on the tank I get 120 (both screws). same thing on the elements. So I'm getting both legs of the 120 (one on each side of the thermostats) but not the 240 coming in

I'm assuming without 240 to the thermostat the elements aren't even coming on. I've been at this for 3 days what am I missing? Is the problem in the breaker box? I'm thinking it has to be, all the electronic hardware for the tank is new as of today

any help is appreciated.

 

[MB165]

pull the wires off and see if both have 120 to ground on each wire. You could be reading one leg through the element at the other terminal that why you only see 120 but not 240.

 

[ATKRIDER]

"Reset was not tripped" and just where is this reset? In a black box on top of the unit?

 

[Patch1st]

Check for 220 volts at the heater BEFORE opening the panel.... If there is 220 at the heater (there was before? Is it a 220 breaker "two pole"??) then the problem is NOT in the panel...... You only mentioned a black and a red from the heater those probably need 120 (to ground) each, and that should make 220 across both of them.... Find the 220 AT the heater (with everything else unhooked, and the breaker turned on) and go from there.....
Should be 120 to ground from the black.... Should be 120 to ground from the white..... Should be 220 between the white and the black.....

Patch

 

[bigrob]

I had a similar problem a few years back at the cottage
The problem turned out to be one of the two main cartrige fuses before the panel

 

[WrenchDad]

I have 120 on each wire,,, the reset is on the thermostat.
I'm gett ing 120 on each side of the thermostat but trouble shooting guide said if I dont have 240 at the top off the thermosate (one lead on each screw) then the problem is at the power in or in the breaker box. I havent checked the breaker yet only because I ran out of time last night. I will check all of these suggestions today, thanks for the input
All input/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Patch1st]

I have 120 on each wire,,, the reset is on the thermostat.
I'm gett ing 120 on each side of the thermostat.

120 on each side does not equal 240 between the two sides..... If there is 240 between the two sides then the problem IS NOT in the panel or anywhere upstream from where you are reading 220..... If you dont see 220 there then work backwards toward the feed until you find where one leg is interrupted....

Patch

 

[MB165]

120 on each side does not equal 240 between the two sides..... If there is 240 between the two sides then the problem IS NOT in the panel or anywhere upstream from where you are reading 220..... If you dont see 220 there then work backwards toward the feed until you find where one leg is interrupted....

Patch

yup, sounds like something is open and you are backfeeding. thats why you see 120 across both legs. work your way back, any junction boxes? One half of the breaker could be crapped out/ open, pull off the panel cover and check voltage at the breaker itsself. but, Be CAREFUL this is DANGEROUS.

 

[Newoldstock]

yup, sounds like something is open and you are backfeeding. thats why you see 120 across both legs. work your way back, any junction boxes? One half of the breaker could be crapped out/ open, pull off the panel cover and check voltage at the breaker itsself. but, Be CAREFUL this is DANGEROUS.

I agree....
I'm an electrician.

You have an open.

Start at the Circuit breaker working you way to the tank.

And he's right, be careful.
We all like to think we are able to fix everything.
But even I call other trades people in for things I know I will no fix to my own high standards.

Electricity is nothing to scoff at.
You can't see it or smell it.
It does things you would think it can't ( but physics allows for a lot of strange things ).
No harm in calling in an expert.
Even I would call in an electrician for some things ( because I really hate what I do )

 

[Patch1st]

#1. Check for 220 at the heater.... IF you have 220 at the heater ignore everything else

before that point.... the end

 

[Newoldstock]

#1. ignore everything else before that point.... the end

My boss will not let me do this.


High voltage capacitor bank vs watermelon - YouTube

 

[WrenchDad]

OK guys first thanks for the advice. I did consult a professional electrician today at work. Like a bunch of you suggested he said check the breaker.
I explained to him what I had and he said put both leads one each on the breaker post and if it doesn't read 240 then the breaker is bad I did that and sure enough I got zero So $16 bucks for new 30Amp double breaker five minutes and it works like new. So thank you to every one who offered their experience , advice, suggestions and input. it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Newoldstock]

I see this all the time.

You should make a habit of once a year turning off and on your breakers to sweep the contacts and keep them clean and in good order.

Some breakers are just not very good.

I for example have old ITE blue line breakers here in my home.
They fail a lot....
They have a track record of trouble and if that is what you have expect more trouble in the future

My best advice is switch them all once a year, and feel that they are not hot or wires have come loose.

 

[WrenchDad]

I see this all the time.

You should make a habit of once a year turning off and on your breakers to sweep the contacts and keep them clean and in good order.

That's good advice and I will do that especially knowing that those older breakers are starting to fail. That one had been in 15 years.
Sometimes my water softener recycles at the wrong time And I get recharge water in my Hot water tank so I shut off power ,drain, flush ,fill and flip the breaker back on so at least that one does get flipped a few times a year.

 

[Newoldstock]

This is the BL I mentioned.
Is this what you have? ( these seem to be the most troublesome out there )
The problem with this older types is they were made small ( tight packing in a small box so they get hot ), they are a stab type ( as apposed to a bolt in so they do not have a very good mechanical connection to the bus ) and they were designed in the days of a spongier power system ( less power at the pole and less short circuit current as compared to today ).

There are many like these from other manufacturers.
They age and get unreliable ( I have a box full of spares just because I am cheap )

Here is a newer type.
Notice it is larger and has a screw to hold it firmly on the live bus.
These will not loosen and give you as much trouble as the older ones.
The box they fit in is larger too ( more room to wire in and more air space to keep parts and wiring cool ).

This is mostly useless information I am probably posting.
But if your shopping for a home or considering upgrades renovations ect it always pays to have an electrician come in and look over your service and see what kind of shape its in before you change things ( add loads ect )

Here is one old timer I always liked the ITE Pushmatic.
These were a higher end bolt type common in the 60s, same era as my BL breakers.
but they were bolt in and very safe and reliable.

Don't let anyone tell you something is junk just because its old.
Electrical equipment shopping ( new or used ) is a lot like shopping for tools some things old are just as good as new, and some stuff brand new is crap.

 

[MB165]

ahhh warm showers again, good work guys.

 

[KustomKartKid]

I for example have old ITE blue line breakers here in my home.
They fail a lot....
They have a track record of trouble and if that is what you have expect more trouble in the future.........

= Federal Pacific

 

[Newoldstock]

= Federal Pacific

You mean federal pioneer?

Last decade or so about 3/4 of the fammiliar names have vannished.
I have no idea whomakes what now.

Best to take a breaker to the store and show the fellow what you need than try and guess.
Sometimes different brands of breaker will fit but your insurance copany will not like the idea of you using the wrong parts

 

[KustomKartKid]

Federal Pacific was a big name here in the states back in the 50's-60's. I remember an electrician coming to my house and when he saw I had an old FP panel he broke out in a sweat.

Apparantly they got a well deserved bad reputation for breakers not kicking off when they should..the older they got, the more dangerous they got.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/investiga...it-Breakers-Fire-Danger-I-Team-149541115.html

I since upgraded to a commercial grade Square D



.

 

[Newoldstock]

Ok FPE.... Federal Pioneer maybe not the same thing in Canada

Yes I know who they are FPE..
I don't have anything good or bad to say about them.

Thing is these are getting old.
And the Utility has been working hard over the years to make things better too.
Lights don't flicker and we don't get the brown outs we used to in the old days.
Down side to this is older CBs are getting the crap beated out of them by todays utility when there is a real short circut and they function as designed to trip....

Every trip ever short circut and overload they clear is hard on them.
And old age does not help.

If its old and suspect replace it.
If you have a CB that trips all the time you should find out why.

Earlier I said the names have all changed.
It would appear that FP is own in part or hole by Shnieder electric.
They also gobbled up Square D Gould, Modicon, Telemechanique and others I can't name.
BIG company from France.....
They make quality parts and most likely they have replacement breakers for FP that are safe these may not fit the FPE made in USA products.

A quick search shows me there are some issues with the FPE and this has soilled the name of FP equipment ( the name Federal Pioneer is a good solid brand ).
Both of these were made in different plants and it looks like the parts are interchangeable.
The FP stuff passes all CSA requirments for safety.
Some fellows might use these simillar names and types as an excuse to sell you a service upgrade you may not need.

I think I should stop talking about this subject because of liability reasons and I would not want anyone to make a mistake based on my lack of experience with US equipment.