LiquidPiston "X Mini" 70 cc Rotary Engine

T-Town Mini

Well-Known Member
#1
This is a new re-imagined version of the rotary engine. The current prototype is rated 3.5 hp at 10,000 RPM and is expected to produce 5 hp revving up to 15,000 RPM when developed.

Smaller and quieter the X engine is being produced to replace current piston engines used on such things as lawn equipment, generators, etc.

X-Mini_Two-Angles1.jpg



Wouldn't you like to put one on a Mini Bike?
 
#4
it wont be until the chinese copy it that it will be affordable.....

...but that being said, this thing is pretty awesome and i am a huge fan of innovations that improve future products, as well as possibly can be adapted to older projects. the 5 hp briggs was for a long time, the universal sideshaft. cutting edge 1930s technology! why again did they build them for so long? they are prone to turning into junk if you dont play with them daily or look at them wrong. (in my experience) and while a vintage mini would probably never look right with one of these, it opens up the possibilities for non-vintage builds for minis. but eventually will lead to entirely new engine designs guaranteed to change small engine design forever.


im already running into kids that never knew a time before the internet, im just waiting for the day i have some kid ask me to explain piston engines and why anyone ever built them. im going to have to answer.... because we werent thinking small enough!

MINIS FOR LIFE!! WHOPP WHOPP lol
 
#5
the 5 hp briggs was for a long time, the universal sideshaft. cutting edge 1930s technology! why again did they build them for so long? they are prone to turning into junk if you dont play with them daily or look at them wrong. (in my experience) and while a vintage mini would probably never look right with one of these, it opens up the possibilities for non-vintage builds for minis. but eventually will lead to entirely new engine designs guaranteed to change small engine design forever.
OK, this is the second time you've beat up on BS Flatties. :laugh: The reason they stayed in production so long was because they worked so well. You've already addressed the fact that they "look right" on a vintage bike- but for many of us who rode them in the 60's and 70's, flat heads are the only choice on a vintage bike. I never have to make any adjustments on them, including the high performance engine I had.

The reason you don't see a lot of rotary applicationsis because of a known design limitation; the seals wear at an unacceptable rate as compared with piston-rings. They require tear-down and rebuild at a rate roughly twice that of piston engines. Advances in metallurgy may eventually solve this, but as of yet, this is price of HP to weight advantage.

im already running into kids that never knew a time before the internet, im just waiting for the day i have some kid ask me to explain piston engines and why anyone ever built them. im going to have to answer.... because we werent thinking small enough!
Yeah, it happens to me right here. :laugh: Rotary engines have been around since 1929. They've been used in aviation since the beginning. Many motorcycles were produced with them over the years beginning in 1960. In the early 70's, there were some used on lawn mowers. Sachs and Wankel did some smaller bikes in the 70's. Various companies have been building them for decades. Rotary technology is not new, nor is it's application on mini bikes, go karts, lawn mowers, skis, etc. "new."

Here is a kart engine.

48 hp and 34 lb-ft of torque, weighs 32 lbs and available now.
products_xr50.jpg
 
#6
I will reserve judgement on any new engine development. I used to read my dad's old pop sci, pop mech, mech illus back when i was a kid. Those old mags were full of new engine design prototypes that never made it to production, although every one was going to replace the normal gasoline engine. Just peruse google books sunce tbey scanned in the old pop mech and pop sci mags to seehow many times a "better" engine was designed. My only wish is that google get permission to scan the old mechanix illustrated mags.

Paul
 
#7
OK, this is the second time you've beat up on BS Flatties. :laugh: The reason they stayed in production so long was because they worked so well. You've already addressed the fact that they "look right" on a vintage bike- but for many of us who rode them in the 60's and 70's, flat heads are the only choice on a vintage bike. I never have to make any adjustments on them, including the high performance engine I had.

The reason you don't see a lot of rotary applicationsis because of a known design limitation; the seals wear at an unacceptable rate as compared with piston-rings. They require tear-down and rebuild at a rate roughly twice that of piston engines. Advances in metallurgy may eventually solve this, but as of yet, this is price of HP to weight advantage.



Yeah, it happens to me right here. :laugh: Rotary engines have been around since 1929. They've been used in aviation since the beginning. Many motorcycles were produced with them over the years beginning in 1960. In the early 70's, there were some used on lawn mowers. Sachs and Wankel did some smaller bikes in the 70's. Various companies have been building them for decades. Rotary technology is not new, nor is it's application on mini bikes, go karts, lawn mowers, skis, etc. "new."

Here is a kart engine.

48 hp and 34 lb-ft of torque, weighs 32 lbs and available now.
View attachment 66294
Yes and no, wear and rebuild depends on the application. i've heard form RX7 guys who have little issue and other who have pushed it to limits and rebuild all the time. that said i like to link this video when possible. Not to say what you said ins't true but, from my undersntading with proper use and maintenance it isn't too bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3pCLjHZmhM

then again as one comment says:

Seriously James, you don't think Toyo-Kogyo[Mazda] did not try this?
They spent millions on the Wankel.

This faker did not show up until Mazda formally announced the end of production.

Google the U.S. patent office website and see Mr.Rotors Engineering's "genius fruits." Con-man.
I'm not sure i have point, i take it all with a grain of salt. I guess until i own one would i TRULY know but, i what do know is that performance is a game of balance in order to gain in one place you must subtract from another. advance your timing loose some bottom end troq, lean it out increase temps and or wear etc etc. Even if the old wankels are are heavy on the attention and repair side they can tear it up if one has the time and money.
 
#8
Flatheads are long term reliable with little maintenance. Foregoing modifications, that is.

Rotarys are fast. Incredibly fast with turbos. And then the rotor seals wear....

The problem with the above design in the amount of rotor that can come in contact with the side plates. As that happens, which it will, the gap between them gets larger and the blowby gets bad. Same thing in the Wankel.

The Piston engine has proven itself for around 100 years. The newer designs haven't held up. Except jet engines....

I am all for innovation. I just don't think this is the right direction.
 
#9
Flatheads are long term reliable with little maintenance. Foregoing modifications, that is.

Rotarys are fast. Incredibly fast with turbos. And then the rotor seals wear....

The problem with the above design in the amount of rotor that can come in contact with the side plates. As that happens, which it will, the gap between them gets larger and the blowby gets bad. Same thing in the Wankel.

The Piston engine has proven itself for around 100 years. The newer designs haven't held up. Except jet engines....

I am all for innovation. I just don't think this is the right direction.
and with that i agree, in no way is rotary gonna replace piston. they have new piston engine with custom cams that utilize the internal pistons to boost the other pistons. instead of firing or exhaust or whatever, when it goes to compress that air gets dumped in to the cylinder 1 over. the new Fiat 500 Abarth has electronic valves, wicked little thing, comes with straight pipes from the factory it's so efficient! Piston desgin has more room to grow i think.

Also i'd think a well tuned modified flathead would be reasonable on maintenance no?
 
#10
Flatheads are long term reliable with little maintenance. Foregoing modifications, that is.

Rotarys are fast. Incredibly fast with turbos. And then the rotor seals wear....

The problem with the above design in the amount of rotor that can come in contact with the side plates. As that happens, which it will, the gap between them gets larger and the blowby gets bad. Same thing in the Wankel.

The Piston engine has proven itself for around 100 years. The newer designs haven't held up. Except jet engines....

I am all for innovation. I just don't think this is the right direction.
Innovation circa WWII. :) This engine and it's problems with reliability on the seals almost caused Mazda to go bankrupt during the RX2 and 3 production.

None of the turbo 13B's hold up as compared to their piston competition, which is generally considered the 2JZ, or the RB26 DETT.

The design itself is flawed and prone to wear, and nothing but metallurgy advancements will fix it, but of course I said this all earlier.

Speaking of the jet, they have been well advanced because of metallurgy advancements, and increasingly accurate machining techniques. I think we need to figure out how to generate heat more efficiently before superior designs are realized. It used to be that an automotive engine was done at 100K miles. Currently, it's common to see them at 300K, with chassis components failing before the engine components do.

I well remember this TV commercial from the early 70's.

[video=youtube;oHzeGEHWMjo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHzeGEHWMjo[/video]
 

65ShelbyClone

Well-Known Member
#11
This is a new re-imagined version of the rotary engine.
In sales and marketing, "re-imagined" is a euphemism for "an old idea that we tweaked just enough to peddle to you as something new."

The current prototype is rated 3.5 hp at 10,000 RPM and is expected to produce 5 hp revving up to 15,000 RPM when developed.
Thus far, all they have to support their design justification is "expected" this, "potential" that and the real details of the project are squirreled away in SAE technical papers that cost $24 apiece, costing anyone $73 just to find out what they contain. The site makes no mention of actual brake specific fuel consumption nor emissions. There are plenty of existing designs that already offer superior power density in exchange for dismal efficiency (the Wankel for one, conventional 2-strokes for another), so it better have superior emissions and/or efficiency.


The reason you don't see a lot of rotary applicationsis because of a known design limitation; the seals wear at an unacceptable rate as compared with piston-rings. They require tear-down and rebuild at a rate roughly twice that of piston engines. Advances in metallurgy may eventually solve this, but as of yet, this is price of HP to weight advantage.
That, and they have terrible fuel economy, emissions, and noise.

Rotary engines have been around since 1929. They've been used in aviation since the beginning.
You're confusing radial piston engines with the Wankel "rotary" design. Wankel's design wasn't even prototyped until the 1950s and radial engines are still conventional piston engines.

Yes and no, wear and rebuild depends on the application. i've heard form RX7 guys who have little issue and other who have pushed it to limits and rebuild all the time.
Mazda Wankels last a long time under three conditions: 1.) NO TURBOCHARGING. 2.) good apex seal lubrication, and 3.) a serious cooling system.

Turbo RX-7s almost universally benefit from cooling upgrades because Wankels have horrendous thermal efficiency. A LOT of combustion heat goes into the cooling system. Turbocharging makes it worse.

OK, this is the second time you've beat up on BS Flatties. :laugh: The reason they stayed in production so long was because they worked so well.
Flatheads are long term reliable with little maintenance. Foregoing modifications, that is.
That is because they typically have very low HP/L. They also suffer the same poor efficiency/emissions as a Wankel due to the large chamber surface, but flatheads are cheap to produce and low compression engines that can use junky fuel. That made them a practical candidate for small utility applications until emissions laws extended their reach down to lawnmowers.

and with that i agree, in no way is rotary gonna replace piston. they have new piston engine with custom cams that utilize the internal pistons to boost the other pistons. instead of firing or exhaust or whatever, when it goes to compress that air gets dumped in to the cylinder 1 over. the new Fiat 500 Abarth has electronic valves, wicked little thing, comes with straight pipes from the factory it's so efficient! Piston desgin has more room to grow i think.
All of those ideas are at least 50 years old; the only change is that electronic and materials technology has advanced to a point that they are now feasible outside of a research laboratory. Electronic valve control was experimented with as far back as the 1960s. Electronic (analog) fuel injection was realized in the 1950s, digital by the late '70s, production-level by the early '80s, and completely replaced carburetion in the U.S. inside of 10 years (there again, due mostly to tightening smog laws).

Piston engines are a highly mature design. Most of the improvements in fuel usage I expect to see will be due to recovering waste energy from the cooling system and exhaust. Turbochargers do that, but the recovered energy is used to compress air that the engine uses to make more power rather than being used directly to move a vehicle.
 
#12
You're confusing radial piston engines with the Wankel "rotary" design. Wankel's design wasn't even prototyped until the 1950s and radial engines are still conventional piston engines.
LMAO! Now THAT would be hard to do, since I worked on C-17 (DC-3) aircraft during the 70's, before I transferred to turbo props. Rotary engines were in use during WWI, though they weren't Wankel's design.

Wankel's design was prototyped in the fifties, but it was patented in the late 20's, my point being that it is hardly a "new" design.
 
#13
Meant "117." Cant edit here anymore. That was our designation. R4D was what the Navy called it. DC-3 civilian model. Last bird of it's type ended up atop a hotel in Japan. 572 (Herk) then became our oldest bird. And that was retired 15 years ago.
 

65ShelbyClone

Well-Known Member
#14
LMAO! Now THAT would be hard to do, since I worked on C-17 (DC-3) aircraft during the 70's, before I transferred to turbo props. Rotary engines were in use during WWI, though they weren't Wankel's design.

Wankel's design was prototyped in the fifties, but it was patented in the late 20's, my point being that it is hardly a "new" design.
What WWI "rotary" design are you talking about that specifically compares to a Wankel?
 
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#16
Hey Dave I too worked on the C-117D at NAS Bermuda till we sent it to mothballs. Mid 70's.
:thumbsup: We had the last two in the Corps. (Futenma, Oki) It was my first non-training squadron. I never got much further on the flight line than carrying tools, until both were decommissioned. Sent to another Squadron with Herks (since 62) but which had flown the R4Q's and R5C earlier in Iwakuni, Japan.

Now, those Herks are long gone, sitting in the bone yard, they've got the J model, and are back up in Iwakuni. I miss all those days.
 
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