Predator 212cc/Hemi Upgrade ?s

[Prowler08]

If you got some tools...you can bore out the carb ya have now and save some money...a homda carb over a Clone carb is minimal...a stock carb can be opened upto around .670 before you really have to start worrying about it...
You can't go wrong with Tim or Russell both are great knowledgable peeps...

Just got a bunch of parts from both actually,and both answered all questions and then some.

 

[LSCustoms]

If you got some tools...you can bore out the carb ya have now and save some money...a homda carb over a Clone carb is minimal...a stock carb can be opened upto around .670 before you really have to start worrying about it...
You can't go wrong with Tim or Russell both are great knowledgable peeps...

Just got a bunch of parts from both actually,and both answered all questions and then some.

would rather not mess with the carb... would rather port the head myself than that... lol... knowing me, i would end up buying specialty tools, etc and it would cost more than buying the carb already done...

Im spending a little more than I initially had planned on this predator, so I want every possible advantage I can get, which is why I choose the honda was told it outperforms the clone... could be the same thing. as long as it comes from someone i could trust, then it doesnt really matter to me.. the price difference wasnt much, so figured go with the honda... the brand doesnt really matter to me though, as long as it is right for the motor

 

[youngengines]

I am putting a Hemi head on the predator build I completed a few weeks ago. I have to get some pushrods, will order them tomorrow. I should have it going by the first of next week. The hemi head is now 15cc, has 27/25 valves (Stainless steel), nice porting, 26lb springs, aluminum retainers.

 

[ole4]

Did you weld it up to get it to 15cc?

 

[youngengines]

Did you weld it up to get it to 15cc?

No, just cut it. I didnt measure how much I cut. I actually angle cut it some, more off the exhaust side than the intake. Exhaust side is almost to the fin.

 

[LSCustoms]

No, just cut it. I didnt measure how muck I cut. I actually angle cut it some, more off the exhaust side than the intake. Exhaust side is almost to the fin.

curious to see the numbers after you run it, vs the other numbers... pm sent

 

[SMALLENGINECAMS]

Did as much research as I could and still had a few questions to clear up...

I have a couple of "carts" with products in them and want to make my order within a day or so... those that have upgraded this motor, please feel free to give your opinion or advice...

am i missing anything, or is money best spent elsewhere on anything? just want to do anything i can, without wasting money and without having to machine the block

on the Hemi headed predator:
1- arc billet flywheel 6626 (with 8 degrees timing advance) (ARC)
1- arc billet rod 6254 (but will go +.20 if piston is in the hole) (ARC)
1- 26lb spring set (smallenginecams)
1- isky black mamba cam (smallenginecams)
1- 27mm stainless valve DJ-1127 (is this stock size?) (ARC)
1- 25mm stainless valve DJ-1121 (is this stock size?) (ARC)
2- HD retainer kit, w keepers DJ-1047 (?) (ARC)
2- Chromoly Push Rods (not sure on length ???, same as old style?)

1- port work and mill on stock head (??? youngengines?)
1-aftermarket carb (???), e85 ??? unleaded gas??? ethanol???
or
1- etube 140 and jets (will determine which jet based on test and tune) ???

research has revealed that I cannot use a larger spring than a 26lb, without cutting the pockets? cannot use 1:3 ratio rockers? push rod lengths are different?

am I missing anything, is anything a waste of money for this motor...

Hi LSCustoms,
The black mamba cam works great in the hemi headed predators. You will not be disappointed in the power it makes.
Tim

 

[LSCustoms]

My budget is to be under $1000, if possible, when all said and done with the upgrades (to make this actually run, carb, throttle plate, etc).. I wanted to do only what is necessary to achieve my personal goal with this motor. which is to gain the highest possible hp/tq or in the highest area, without having to machine the block for a stroker crank or bigger piston. To do that would blow my budget almost instantly.

I will not edit what I buy, even if a mistake was made, or somehow i end up over the budget ... just so a person new to small engines (like myself) can see what I went through... seeing a thread like this, would have saved me a ton of headaches... thanks to guys like youngengines, I am quickly becoming more comfortable with choices, without buying my own dyno machine etc...

this is where I am at so far and what has ALREADY been ordered or obtained:

-Harbor Freight Engine 60363, Predator 212cc, Hemi-Headed Version $97
-ARC 6626 Billet Kohler CH270/New Predator Flywheel $100
-ARC 6236 Billet Rod (3.595" X .490") $83.95
-11132P94 Wiseco Piston (2.756" X .640") $89.95
-ARC 6521 New "Short" Heavy Duty Wrist Pin $19.00
- DJ-1146-P ARC Top Plate/Throttle Station (For Hemi-Head) $25
-Walbro FPC1-1 Fuel Pump (New Style, good up to 25hp) $17.50
-Autolite Spark Plug AR3910X, $7
-Misc (Shipping) $9

Total so far: $448.40
Left in budget: >$551.60

will sell any take off parts I can, to bring the overall money spent down to as low as possible for my budget...

youngengines, suggested the black mamba cam over anything else...:thumbsup:

a short time ago, I got a response to my email from Tim (Isky Cams, smallenginecams.com)... he could have sold me a more expensive cam, instead, he too told me that the black mamba cam, would be the best cam for this build... :thumbsup:

added to the above list:
- Black Mamba Cam, 26 lb springs, FHS racing oil $82.85 (with tax and shipping)

Total so far: $531.25
Left in budget: >$468.75

 

[LSCustoms]

Need to make a final decision on head and choose a carb...

 

[jdogg]

Another nice informative thread G!! I'll be following!! :thumbsup:

 

[LSCustoms]

Hi LSCustoms,
The black mamba cam works great in the hemi headed predators. You will not be disappointed in the power it makes.
Tim

thanks for the fast response Tim :thumbsup:, we must have posted at the same time, i didnt see this post, until after I posted the order... thanks again. Im very happy with how it performs in my other motor...

Another nice informative thread G!! I'll be following!! :thumbsup:

thanks J

More parts on the way (from Arc):

-6878 ARC Carb. Adapter GX390 to Predator $18
-DJ-1345 BSP Carb Stud (to replace short stud) $1.55
-6929 ARC GX340/390 Air Filter Adapter $9
-GXC-413-00 (3/16") Push Rods Cut to Length $20.68
-shipping $8.13
-totaling $74.36 shipped

GrandTotal so far: $605.61
Left in Budget: >394.39

 

[LSCustoms]

advantage in a carb with the choke deleted vs installed?
improved air flow :shrug:

 

[LSCustoms]

E85 vs Methanol

as E85 and pump race gas are available at a local gas station... i am leaning toward e85, as opposed to Methanol... although methanol may make slightly more hp, the cons (according to research) outweigh any potential gain, for my project (for example, having to store it a certain way, draining it out the tank and flushing the motor with gas, etc)...

here is some info from other sites...

E85:
Q: Why should I switch to E85?
A: E85 is a renewable fuel source that is also environmentally friendly. Its performance is comparable to race gas at a fraction of the cost. Your engine will run cooler and your ETs will be less affected by atmospheric changes. E85 is not corrosive like methanol and does not leave carbon deposits like gas so maintenance is reduced across the board. With the proper tune-up your oil stays looking like new.
Q: What is the difference in ethanol and methanol?
A: Both fuels have an excellent intake air charge cooling effect. Ethanol (grain or ethyl alcohol) is a biofuel made through the distillation of renewable resources like corn, sugar cane and switch grass. Yes, this is the same process they use to make alcoholic beverages like liquor. Fuel ethanol is 180 proof when produced. 15% regular 87 octane gasoline is added to E100 to add a little lubricant as well as ease the initial cold startup. Methanol (wood alcohol) is produced through a chemical process. By its nature methanol is more corrosive and provides 35% less energy then E85 so you have to burn 35% more of it to make comparable power. E85 cost the same or less then regular unleaded gasoline, methanol cost $4.00 - $5.00 a gallon.
Q: What type of performance can I expect from making the switch to E85?
A: It has been our experience that E85 with its 105 octane rating and high tolerance to detonation is superior to premium pump gas and equal to and in most cases better than 110 octane race gas. We picked up a tenth of a second and 2 to 3 miles per hour in the eighth mile after switching to E85 from 110 race gas and our engine runs 20 degrees cooler.
Q: Don’t I have to replace all the “rubber” in my fuel system so it want be eaten up by the alcohol in E85?
A: NO!!! We started out on this journey with a complete gasoline system. We upped the flow 30% to compensate for the lower heat energy output of ethanol and left everything else the same just to see the effects. We switched to E85 at the end of the 2006 racing season and to date we have found zero deterioration or corrosion anywhere in our fuel system. We leave it in the system all the time. We don’t drain anything between races or use any type of fuel lube.
Q: How much compression can I run with E85 fuel just the way it comes out of the pump at my local station?
A: This is one question I don't have a concrete answer for. We are running it in engines up to 14.5:1 naturally aspirated and some fairly high boost forced induction applications with great results. I have seen charts that draw the line at 16:1 but there again I just don’t have the data yet of a failure directly due to the compression limit of pump grade E85 being reached.
Q: Where can I find E85 in this area?
A: You can find E85 in any area by logging onto Flex Fuel Station Finder |Ethanol Retailer and just click on your state for a list of stations that carry it.

Methanol fuel is generally harder to set up for than gasoline. If you are not proficient in jetting carburetors and evaluating engine performance then it is best to gain these experiences with gasoline first.

Methanol fuel is recommended for short duration racing only such as drag racing or short sprint racing, you will consume twice the amount of alcohol fuel for any given horsepower output when compared to gasoline, so the range of your fuel tank is basically cut in half.

Because methanol is "hygroscopic" meaning it absorbs water, it requires special handling procedures. The number one piece of advise is to buy only as much fuel as you will use in a week, and buy the fuel from a reputable vendor who stores the fuel in sealed metal drums.

It is preferable to store methanol in a sealed metal container. Plastic is OK for short term storage only, but put the container on wood, not on the ground. Be sure to keep your container sealed at all times.

In addition to attracting water, methanol is corrosive to metals, gaskets and seals. In four stroke engines it is recommended that you use a "top lube" or methanol fuel treatment in order to combat corrosion. Many motorsports oil manufacturers make products specifically for treating methanol fuel systems.

Methanol must be drained from the fuel system at the end of the day every day. This is especially important in the coastal climates. Because fuel tanks and carburetors are ventilated to the atmosphere the methanol inside will absorb water and corrode costly fuel system components.

Once the methanol has been drained from the entire fuel system you will have to put gasoline into the carburetors and run the engine. We use a radiator overflow bottle filled with pre-mix, attach a hose from the bottom of the bottle to the fuel fittings on the carbs. Start the engine and run it for two or three minutes, leave the gasoline in the fuel system until the next ride.

say wah! oh no he diANt!... ut:, too much work for me. Im sure you could get away with this or that, but I would want to do it right, as far as all the draining and storage requirements... i dont know about all that.

 

[Prowler08]

advantage in a carb with the choke deleted vs installed?
improved air flow :shrug:

No advantage installed or not installed.
But...it will be easier to start.
Also watch E85 it is not the most user friendly...it can gum things up, and may need more maintaining than gas.
Depending on the mix.

Also I don't understand that you would be willing to work on your head but not the carb?
Just doing a slight opening up of the venture will be a big improvement.
The 390 carb will take some tuning and rejetting to run right.
Even then you still might end up having a slight hesitation on the bottom end.

Just a FYI

 

[LSCustoms]

No advantage installed or not installed.
But...it will be easier to start.
Also watch E85 it is not the most user friendly...it can gum things up, and may need more maintaining than gas.
Depending on the mix.

Also I don't understand that you would be willing to work on your head but not the carb?
Just doing a slight opening up of the venture will be a big improvement.
The 390 carb will take some tuning and rejetting to run right.
Even then you still might end up having a slight hesitation on the bottom end.

Just a FYI

Im more comfortable with race gas or e85 and it is readily available. normally keep race gas handy for other projects and use e85 in my truck... can also get e85 in the can, if i for some reason buy the tool to test the content and am not happy, after buying it from the pump... i dont even know if this motor will NEED race gas, meth or e85 to run good...

my options were e85 vs gas and / meth vs gas.... then chose one of them based on my overall goal... e85 should be better for this mild build than gas. and compared to meth, I am more comfortable with it. going to be running that in my race car project too (which is a fairly low budgeted project for a race car)...

not willing to work on the head or the carb, but i would still be more comfortable doing minor work on the intake and exhaust on the head, than to bore a carb the wrong way... i would not be comfortable trying to mill this head for the first time (so wouldn't be worth it for me to do any of the work in it)...

i was aware of the possible idling issue or hesitation down low, but am glad you brought it up for this thread... the site selling the carbs stated that as well... for the money, i am way more comfortable buying it already done and setup for the right fuel... tuning the carb doesn't bother me at all (reading plugs and changing jets etc). through the information I have been given and through research, others have reported better results (for the money) using the 390 carb vs a stock bored... basically made a choice based on the info i had, without being overly critical. the Honda 390 I am buying, is less expensive than the SA bored/mod carb I was looking at, this also helped the decision.

 

[LSCustoms]

Also I don't understand that you would be willing to work on your head but not the carb?
Just doing a slight opening up of the venture will be a big improvement.

by the way... I def. appreciate your encouragement to do those mods myself and am fairly confident I can, just not comfortable for this motor (at this time)... I will however be more willing to play with my wifes motor... i will attempt to bore the carb on hers (its just jetted at this time and etube) and port the heads on there (which just have 26lb springs), before possibly upgrading to a hemi head for her old style to see if i can get it right (and see an improvement)... :thumbsup:

 

[LSCustoms]

if anyone had any better or more RELIABLE information on E85 vs Methanol (than what I have found and posted), please contribute this to the thread.

I have made some minor mistakes with how ive handled my budget (as far as paying double shipping, when ordering parts from the same company more than once!), but that amount is minimal (im pretty much on budget)...

i did this thread to help people like me and hope those with respectable experience contribute info to the thread along the lines of this build and anything I have purchased or not... I will update the thread as i get everything together or any results i can show or prove, etc. so people in the future can find a thread with more specific info in it... im not trying to win any class races or compete :smile:, just having fun with the family... this is a toy... i put my race car on hold, so that i could build it smarter and wiser (budget wise), so these types of projects help to feel a void...

ive had to do this (learn as I go) with my race car projects and its a pain to think about how much money ive lost, learning (worth every penny though)... this small engine stuff is much easier for me to swallow right now...

hopefully this thread will help someone with a similar budget or less, set a goal for themselves and have a starting point, from which to add or take away from...

the briggs WF motor I wanted was around $995, plus shipping... i believe it is around 14 hp (i think the animal may be around 9hp stock for $500), the older style motor i have should be making something around there and the budget was considerably less than this one... thus my choice to start off with a modded hemi and see what it can do...

i do want to thank those that have helped along the way, for making this less intimidating... i want to see this mini bike project all the way through!

 

[Havasu Dave]

if anyone had any better or more RELIABLE information on E85 vs Methanol (than what I have found and posted), please contribute this to the thread.

Well, what I "was" going to say is that the comparison you posted before detailed far more complicated fuel systems that what you'll have.

I was pit crew on a door slammer running 9's on methanol. It was a royal pain in the ass. We didn't drain the tank, even at 90% humidity. We did however remove all engine compartment fuel fittings, and drained both carbs and ran WD 40 into the lines, and then left them open. Before racing, we had to close it all back up again. This using AN wrenches on aluminum fittings.

Bang for buck, meth gives you more horsepower, but it's not suited for casual, frequent riding.

A few of the race boats here on the river are running E85, and the learning curves are now ironed out and they're having good luck with them. No purging of lines, and hotter than race fuel. And cheaper for the long races.

"I'm not trying to win any class races or compete , just having fun with the family." Sounds like pump gas to me. And if you do end up with some insane, non-pull start compression ratio, you can mix race gas with pump gas, and there are on-line calculators to compute theoretical octane ratings.

At this point, it may be advisable to continue on with increasing your knowledge on setting up viable motors, since that in itself is complicated enough. My two cents worth.

This would probably be fast enough for the family. Grin!

http://www.oldminibikes.com/forum/mini-bike-events/33042-l-drag-spot-2861.html#post759210

 

[LSCustoms]

Bang for buck, meth gives you more horsepower, but it's not suited for casual, frequent riding.

"I'm not trying to win any class races or compete , just having fun with the family."

Sounds like pump gas to me. And if you do end up with some insane, non-pull start compression ratio, you can mix race gas with pump gas, and there are on-line calculators to compute theoretical octane ratings.

At this point, it may be advisable to continue on with increasing your knowledge on setting up viable motors, since that in itself is complicated enough. My two cents worth.

thank you for the input... for e85, I had been comparing its use in cars and race motors... so having you add the info helps... couldnt find any "technical" info as it relates to small engines, but the meth info was taken off a site for small engines, so based it off what i could gather...

i am comfortable with race gas and mixing it with regular for higher octane, etc... and they also have vp 100 at the pump as well as higher in cans locally, if needed...

another reason i settled on e85, was because i thought it would be better for cooling and it is cheaper than even regular gas is and def cheaper than the race gas i use... all that and supposed to be a higher octane rating than race gas at times? if for some reason i cant get it to run right (which i think i can), I will switch to a normal gas carb (or if possible re tune it for normal fuel)... even if i couldnt sell the carb, or run normal gas with it, i should still be within my overall budget and then lesson learned... this will be putted around with the kids and also (if safe to do so), they/kids will run it down the track, as inspiration to keep their grades up and build their mini projects... we i say not compete, i mean in some sort of actual event where there are rules... but i am def. very competitive and will have to beat up on the kids and whatever they do through the years and whatever projects the wife gets into...

keep the advise coming :thumbsup:

 

[Havasu Dave]

thank you for the input... for e85, I had been comparing its use in cars and race motors... so having you add the info helps... couldnt find any "technical" info as it relates to small engines, but the meth info was taken off a site for small engines, so based it off what i could gather...

i am comfortable with race gas and mixing it with regular for higher octane, etc... and they also have vp 100 at the pump as well as higher in cans locally, if needed...

another reason i settled on e85, was because i thought it would be better for cooling and it is cheaper than even regular gas is and def cheaper than the race gas i use... all that and supposed to be a higher octane rating than race gas at times? if for some reason i cant get it to run right (which i think i can), I will switch to a normal gas carb (or if possible re tune it for normal fuel)... even if i couldnt sell the carb, or run normal gas with it, i should still be within my overall budget and then lesson learned... this will be putted around with the kids and also (if safe to do so), they/kids will run it down the track, as inspiration to keep their grades up and build their mini projects... we i say not compete, i mean in some sort of actual event where there are rules... but i am def. very competitive and will have to beat up on the kids and whatever they do through the years and whatever projects the wife gets into...

keep the advise coming :thumbsup:

No where in your data do I see possible numbers on final compression ratio.

You won't see any fuel savings in cost with E85. You'll end up burning more- in some tests I've seen a 20% increase to maintain the same AFR as with race gas.

There is also some data out there from folks having aluminum oxidation within their combustion chambers as a result of burning it. That guy saw a 3% power increase with the E85 on the dyno by the way.